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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 15:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Commander Godsmack on 18/09/2010 15:51:46
Not that if the below are yes this would give me a sense of security if I were to do my own bond/IPO offering ect. but:
Do auditors get audited?
And if so is there some check/balance system body of some sort thats watching the auditors are doing and or from being buddy buddy with each other or they all being 1 person's alt?
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 16:20:00 -
[2]
 ZOMGz
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:08:00 -
[3]
Despite weather I'm being seen as a troll or not ; still waiting on a legitimate answer and possibly as well as other people who may read this, unless so far the replys are the official MD legitimate answer... then well - /me starts whistling
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:06:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Imperator Principes
I was under the impression that auditors were put through a serious gauntlet in the process of becoming an auditor and grilled over the smallest mistake or missed detail. If you are asking about current established auditors, then I don't really think so. Auditors are rare enough on MD as it is right now, and I'm guessing no one wants to give the ones we do have a hard time. That being said, even if we did audit auditors, who would audit the auditor's auditor?
Well if once established the "new guy" has gone through the gauntlet it could have just been a PR stunt. And not bother and be nice to the good auditors you have now, makes me think of say X that becomes a pope in mid evil times then does wtf they want.
As to last line what i got from Breakers link was that Assuming the value of audits
- basically if an auditor dosnt get audited it dosnt help their street kred / If they do get audited it also dosnt help them
Catch-22 ?
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 18:09:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 17:51:46
I would be happy to submit my answer for certification as an "official MD legitimate answer" with the Wise and Venerable MD Council (WVMDC) if you are willing to fund the incurring certification fee.
Idk if i want to sponsor u yet... Me thinks u dont have trolling lvl 5 completed yet 
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 18:44:53
links, please - the statistics I have seen so far indicate that scam rates on audited offerings are much lower than on unaudited ones.
(I think a few people had been looking for this link during the last days)
Don't forget to see what that data does and doesn't show
It shows:
43% of offering are successful or still running without audit or collateral
with collateral thats about 75% of all offering's made so far
so audits here are a minority really
It dosnt show:
Scam rates compared to size of offers
Also to consider: bias of data ; Really? out of all the offerings not a few have turned out to been scams which where audited? I find that hard to believe.
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 19:50:00 -
[7]
I think I like some stuff your saying SencneS, but now if I'll humbly point out how my OP was more of challenging the legitimacy of the trustworthiness of auditors which is while similar to the course this thread has started to go down of the point of audits at all maybe if can get some bridge between the two ideas so the OP doesn't get swept under the rug as I'm fairly sure its a much lesser challenged/mention - w/e idea
All the while both subjects aim for the same point of rationalizing why not to have audits the mainstream discussion seems to be they dont help prevent scams but what i dont see much (which I'm posting about) is any1 really scrutinizing the trust auditors get with the information they receive.
Few days ago some1 in a chat mentioned how auditors would make the best scam alts:
If I remember what they said some points made where the following:
make an auditing alt hell maybe even 2 or 3 - get those puppies established in the special committee of trust whatnot in MD.
Once you have that you can just audit yourself and/or falsify/str8 up bs resulting of audit and VOILA! there the dam breaks and comes in the isk rushing in torrents.
OH! and not to mention you could then do it over and over again as well lack of a better cliche the head of the snake is still remains un-severed
just thought as writing that not only goes about my original point but then even other legitimate audits cant pick up that deception from a determined/dedicated scammer.
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 20:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 19:46:13
edit: I am leaving this thread - again no single new argument has come to light, just old arguments (and old fallacies) repeated over and over again...
Am I the only one who can be bothered to recall/reread the numerous discussions during the last 1.5 years on that topic?
If anyone wants to pull off a 720-style scam he has my full support.
edit2: seriously, in terms of available/known arguments nothing has changed during the last few months - what exactly justifies repeating that whole discussion again? there seems to be no new empirical data to consider and no new insights on the advantages or shortcomings of audits either... What has changed that should make us revise the previous conclusions?
I see my thread is being hijacked and being run off with a mainstream bandwagon while sweeping what I was trying to get out in the first place.
Maybe indirectly i'm saying i dont agree with audits but what i was saying is
How is it auditors can be completely trusted?with the information they get?
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I wasn't hashing the point of that audits don't prevent scams or not - remembering what the op was about and being less whimsical with the bandwagon would be nice
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 20:09:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
As audited offerings have so far not tended to result in large scams, it seems unlikely that one of the existing auditors misuses his position in the way outlined by you (and since we didn't have new auditors for quite some time it seems unlikely that he is still in the rep-building phase of his scam alts) but there is no guarantee that auditors don't abuse their private information and privileged position in this or other ways.
How is it unlikely? Once you have an auditor alt or a few built up you are set - so long as you don't do something incredibly stupid your alts cant get burned just the ones the you use as the face for your heists.
An likewise an "auditor" can make just the same use of alts with the information they get while the clean alts(auditors) remain clean.
As for the time factor idk what to say on that - I don't follow these forums enough to know whos who but I'll retort with the analogy of aging whiskey in a barrel?
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 20:18:00 -
[10]
Quote:
copying of business plans etc. - practically nothing you can do to detect or prevent it
What are you talking about? would you be calling a copy and paste scamming?
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 20:24:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 18/09/2010 20:18:21
Originally by: Commander Godsmack
How is it unlikely? Once you have an auditor alt or a few built up you are set - so long as you don't do something incredibly stupid your alts cant get burned just the ones the you use as the face for your heists.
depends on what you are talking about
copying of business plans etc. - practically nothing you can do to detect or prevent it (that's why - at least before VV - auditing was basically charity work by people who supposedly had no need for additional income)
scamming with alts - this would result in audited offerings (by these alts) resulting in scams; as we generally don't see audited offerings turning scam (see the data linked above, if you don't believe it look up cosmoray's data which paints essentially the same picture) I don't think this is happening (unless the auditor is still building up the alt for the final scam which burns it)
bolded the second part i didnt use in other post
1. I think the data you posted is biased
2. Post como's data
3. Idk if this piont will help my arguement dont really ***** the forums but what keeps being is said is the quantity of offerings; what about the legit vs scam on an isk ratio?
4. Back on topic - whats to stop auditors from using the info they get?
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 20:27:00 -
[12]
lol im doing a fast reply response time on this (my) thread for abit as so to keep this boat from being tipped over and going waaaaay off topic  as was starting to happen about halfway through the first page.
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 20:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
as we generally don't see audited offerings turning scam (see the data linked above, if you don't believe it look up cosmoray's data which paints essentially the same picture) I don't think this is happening (unless the auditor is still building up the alt for the final scam which burns it)
What about offers that were audited then went on to non audited offers? If those scammed would you still consider that a scam based on being audited or not?
Quoting for the purpose to give Breaker the spotlight for their question as well for my own research for me to get while im in town (on forums)
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 21:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
How is it auditors can be completely trusted?with the information they get?
I have seen this question asked many times, usually in the wrong context.
People try and put investees and auditors on the same boat but they are not.
- Investees may have sensible information stored in their API keys. But auditors include *multiples* of said information in their API key. This requires a different and HUGELY more trustworthy "super-mega-auditor" than normal.
There are not many names I could make that would be eligible for such a task. There is possibly one name of them that still plays and he's not auditing any more.
- Investees are many and come and go. Auditors are few and may "stay" for years. They get known over time in a gradual process and tend to end up being known with their good and bad sides. This makes extremely difficult to consistently lie so well and build up some evil machination.
- Scammers tend to be for the flashy and fast things and to say "SCORE!" once they are done. Auditors are slow going and in something that is hardly a flashy or engrossing profession. This makes somewhat harder for a scammer to impersonate one.
On your first piont VV are you suggesting a chain of command / being of auditors with one uber guy at the top that nobody touches?
Your second point on generalizing and trying to physiologically deduce "scammers" into a segregated group of people makes me cringe but that's a different discussion.
For having to consistently lie? The scammer only really needs to do that for the face of their heists and duration of them
ex. They are using toon X to scam and take 3 months to biuld the street cred = they just need to lie with that toon.
For their auditor alts they just have to conduct regular business - these toons don't have to do that much work aside from start up to get them there.
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.18 21:15:00 -
[15]
Anyways movie tyme for me so i will be letting this thread autopilot itself for a while seeing its gotten more on track where i intended hopefully now its not to get hijacked and rammed into something way off in the clouds.
For those of you just joining - for clarity of this thread I'll again basically what my thoughts are =
Auditors make the best scam alts
and...
How can auditors be trusted with the information they get?
As well as in my OP i asked if auditors get audited even when established
while related to the "whats the piont of audits in the first place" hashings thats not really what was meant here.
Think that should keep this ship on course while i afk 
hasta leugo
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Commander Godsmack
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Posted - 2010.09.19 01:11:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Commander Godsmack on 19/09/2010 01:12:17
Ok few hours away and i see this has gone off topic again - My questions dont want to be swept under the rug by trying to change it to something else do they lol
and VV you sorta dodged my question about a hierarchy of auditors
also
"one of the reasons why I am so selective about new auditors: they don't even seek for advice, they just pretend to open shop and have anyone trust them like that."
If i get this right are you like some person around here that's basically gives out auditing licenses with your word saying such and such is competent to be an auditor?
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edit - ZOMG text walls
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